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Thread: effectiveness of older heroes passive decrease exponentially with new gear.

  1. #1
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    effectiveness of older heroes passive decrease exponentially with new gear.

    A lot of older heroes have passive skills, it gives bonus stats to themselves or the whole team or remove stats to the enemy team. Here are some exemples:
    - Shadow leaf with damage aura bonus
    - Commando with agility aura bonus
    - Shadow Shaman with armor debuff
    - Frost mage with magic resistance debuff

    Now with the new O+ and Red gears, those passive are not as effective as they were at level 90 with O gear because those passives are not affected by items. From level 90 to 100 those heroes only get 10 levels to increase those skills while O+ items and red gear give shit tons of increased stats, compared to the items lvl 90 and lower.

    For example (with approximate numbers), a level 90 O Admiral have 500 armor, Shadow shaman's passive removes 90 armor (debuff of -18% armor). A level 100 Red+1 admiral has 900 armor, Shadow shaman's passive removes 100 armor (debuff of -11% armor). The same goes on with every passive. The more increased stats there is on new gear, the less efficient those fixed stats passive are.

    This is one if the reasons why we don't see those heroes in the current meta game, and we will probably never see them again because they will be less and less efficient.

    A solution could be to scale those passive with gear the same way offensive and Healing skills scale with gear.

    Please Ucool make those older heroes effective again instead of creating unoriginal new heroes with damage AOE ultimates.

    Discuss..

  2. #2
    Administrator Contributor Level 10 Ember's Avatar
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    Thanks for bringing this up Emandv. Please reply to this thread if anyone would like to comment on this suggestion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ember View Post
    Thanks for bringing this up Emandv. Please reply to this thread if anyone would like to comment on this suggestion.
    he is absolutely right.

    and one more thing : old heroes from dota characters were more balanced than new ones.

    i hope to see new heroes from the game dota. because all new heroes you give us are too op or too weak and really tired too str heroes with powerful damage and aoe skills. but no summoner hero for a long time..

  4. #4
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8 Jinsuna's Avatar
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    Another way would be to increase the the stat increase per lvl on higher lvl ... still fixed stats that are easier to balance ... no need to rebalance heroes at low lvl

    Psychopath could increase armor reduction by 8 for each lvl 91-100 ... giving him 170 armor reduction ... about 18-19% on admiral

  5. #5
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    Doing this only will not make these heroes viable in teams. The reason is that their skills are not as good as heroes' skills nowadays.

    The old heroes do one, maybe two things with each of their skills. Or you can even say the are only good for 1 thing (either they are tanks, damage dealers or support heroes) See this post for more.
    New heroes do a lot with one skill, either utility-wise or damage + utility.

    Compare how many crowd control effects TF / Chemist have compared to any older tank.
    Or compare how tanky Griffin is with his high damage compared to any older tank / damage dealer.


    I wanted to make an excel with hero skills and utils and damage but it is too much work and mostly would be in vain, as most of our constructive criticism falls on deaf ears.

  6. #6
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    I agree something should be changed on older heroes.

    Idea is good to maybe change the amount of stat increase in higher hero/skill lvls.

    On the other Hand - it really should be carefully tested and balanced


    Additional:
    For some reasons it can also be good that some skills are not based on gear
    Using same heroes Players can have same advantage, no matter of gear.
    That also e.g. in campaign/Trials rifts.....I´ve done Cursed City Diff 8/3* with a 3* P2 ShadowShaman -
    as the shield he gives tank swallows a certain amount of dmg - no matter of gear.

    Making more (or even all) skills scaling with basiscstats/gear will change mechanics a lot

  7. #7
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    +1 .... old auras need to be buffed on higher levels ... and so do the old heroes - as someone said, new heroes come with some many skills combined ... the old heroes just perform so bad compared to the new ones

  8. #8
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    Totally agree, this might be a step in the right direction towards making the old heroes playable again...

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    Gold Member Contributor Level 6 tyrant160's Avatar
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    +1 on this thread. old heroes have died no one uses them anymore.
    ID 1434811 <sCo>TyranT

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    I have a bit difirent idea.remove passive skill from skills and add some active skill,but make ALL heroes to have some pasive ability,but do not grow whit level.just to have it from lvl 1 to 100.description can put in stats,or below stats

  11. #11
    Universal Leader Contributor Level 10 kingedward's Avatar
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    Id like to play with all my heroes, pls fix it

  12. #12
    Prime Leader Contributor Level 11 Lady-E's Avatar
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    Main problem why a lot of heroes are useless now days is appearance of TF and tons of tanks...ok we all love to have a good tank but really do we need this much tanks? Those heroes you mentioned are not important at all in recent teams setups. Commando and SL can't be much of a use to those teams. FM doesn't do much at all...SS wasn't used in arena before too so can't comment about him but many of old useful heroes don't have a place in current meta. Problem with current meta is it has very few places for support, mages and agile heroes. Which of those can we see at all in arena? Support only Mani, mage only IE, agility only HN and CA...I'd love to see mages comeback, some new agile heroes that destroy those strength formations but looks like it's not gonna happen soon...I really dislike the fact that ALL mages are useless now except for IE and they're much cooler and more interesting than any tank...really hope Ucool does something about those mentioned above and mages too. Mach, FM, Succ, SQ were very good heroes and now they just don't stand a chance. Also EB was a great to have and now he's fallen of the cliff too...

  13. #13
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    Mages:
    ofc IE is almost a must
    Mani as well
    DM at r1 has definetely a comeback - she is super strong.
    DMG comparable with HN or even better + more support as she can silence, which seems to often Counter enemy Mani at right Moment, so your´s ulti first
    + her self heal is also great.

    SH if you see him as mage also great at r1 - often used in defending/heal Teams (along with DiB,Chap,LB - so also other ones)

    Agility heroes:
    DV is commonly used - works great against TF Teams if you use her + CMDR as only frontline
    Rosefencer seems to be quite useful, working on upgearing mine (4* o1 only atm), DL
    DL is quite strong and a lot use him
    AS also has comeback
    VS still good in certain Setups

    So I see especially starting Lv96 onwards and with r1 People upgrade more different heroes having different Teams

    In GA ofc a lot more are good (still FD,CW,EB,etc)

    But agree, some are completely left behind....

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    Universal Leader Contributor Level 10 KimoD's Avatar
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    Cloud Walker - miss a lot have poor dmg and his further clone just block in the mid line of the opponent's heros and die instantly.
    Chaplean - poor healing. At red +1 6k heal if poor as long as you think at o+0 is 4.5k. Her skill with the stick is pathetic (DMG and animation) Her stick do like 3k max dmg.Maybe some critical healing is usefull.
    Master mage - Change the exile skill. Who want to be exiled in a PvP battle without no dmg? Answer : the enemy that will win because of the timeout.
    Nature storm - with the new gear. Her stats are so low..maybe a remake or increase her damage or dodge. Her survavility is lower then sapper and now she can be killed easly.
    Crossed knight - His shield is ok but he just stay with his shield where he cast her ulti because he will protect forever because of a clone or something that long time gone from there. + some more damage should be ok.
    Griffin - have some times when he do not retarget and just ulti or throw his eggs into the wrong way with no clone turtle ninja or sapper there ( his eggs..really? make him female)
    Old curse - his Dot can't kill easy can be intrerupted poor health . For him i recomand or to increase his damage or HP or to make him deale holy magic damage.
    Frost mage - all her stats are week at o+2 or red. Maybe change the stats of her or make her ulti more versatible. Can she throw 2 ice balls 1 that can go behind the enemy line like commander's charge and keep the other to hit in front?
    Drunken Master - Miss a lot. Big Hp but poor damage. I think he is blind when he cast his blindness skill or my ninja wear sun-glasses. Increase his damage and made him less intrerupted. Is a tank make him strong not just a meatball without hat..
    Mystic - After o+0 his ulti don t kill anything. Just make him deale more damage with his ulti and will be ok.
    War chief - is no longer used because he revives when there is nothing to do. He dies slowly..even his heros that are behind die faster..Maybe lower his hp and at rebirth give him full hp and armor class skills
    Wind master - Increase her damage and dodge.I didn t add succumbus here because is ok. WM isn t.
    Psihopath - Can you increase the hp on this guy? Is an off tank with poor hp. At o+2 can be killed like purple..
    Robot prime - Just his ulti must be remaked.
    wondering spearman - Increase his damage and make him immune to intrerupt when he ulti. He just throw champaln sticks and deal the same damage like her.
    Shadow shaman - increase the damage and the bless skill to absorb more damage and make him ulti faster
    Iron hoof - increase him damage overall
    Deathknight - Increase the heal he will absorbs from the damage he dealed and his damage.
    Pilot - increase his damage overall
    Dworf warrior - He miss a lot. His damage is poor. 30k at o+2 with a miss chance..
    Tursked Storm - Increase his damage, hp and his buffing skills.
    Brute - increase his damage and let his ulti as long as he have the oportunity not just 10% hp. He is worst then Dworf Warrior.
    Ice mage - Increase her damage and hp. Her ulti at red +1 do like 3k / hit. Letting some heros to charge faster and to destroy her with her legenday.
    Sniper - make him shot all the targets with all his skills and increase the damage and the miss rate.
    Lightening Master - Increase his damage and the stun effects should stay at least 4 seconds.
    Forest guardian - Increase his damage and HP
    Warrior monk - increase his stun time do be at least 3 seconds for each increase his hp and his damge .
    Mountain - add a stun ability to every skill increase his damage and his hp
    Proffesional killer - Make him immune to intrerupting add more damage and hp ( he full his hp because his skills heal more then his life) and make him do not miss ( what professional is that? )
    Ice spirit - incerease his damage and the silence skill shoud be permanent
    Ferryman - More damage more hp (give him a change for 5 vs 1 he have all the "death skills" and he do poor damage worst then ice mage )
    Psihic Sword - make her immune to psihical damage let her play with the battlefield ( if you do that just increase her hp and the damage she will deal)
    Deathgore - increase his damage his hp and poison thouse spikes he have. Make his do DoT damage not just staying there and die
    Storm lord - increase his damage and his hp
    Ninph of sea - She have a bug with her bubbles. The enemy still do somehow his abilities and the ulti. Increase her damage
    Cat fancer - increase his damage and hp.
    Ancient protesctor - increase his damage hp of him and the plants and let him summon them as long as he have energy.
    Lunar Guardian - Her name is still Loreth but is no more a female. Increase his hp and the damage.
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  15. #15
    Gold Member Contributor Level 7 cynizm's Avatar
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    +1 to this
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