Page 1 of 8 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 114

Thread: A necessary War Chief mechanic change

  1. #1
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12

    A necessary War Chief mechanic change

    War Chief is currently by far the best tank available in arena, with Iron Hoof closely being second. This thread, is NOT about War Chief's dominance. It's not. Whether or not War chief is overpowered or not is a completely different topic.

    What this thread is about though, is the revive mechanic. More specifically, the revive mechanic in combination with cleave. For anyone that doesn't know what I'm talking about, after dying the first time, War chief stays dead for three seconds, then revives, then uses the skill cleave immediately. It sounds totally fine right? Wrong. The revive timer, along with an immediate cleave causes two major issues that make War chief warrant a mechanic change.

    The first issue is minor. It's in crusade. Crusade uses arena teams as opponents, therefore, out of 15 stages, you'll meet AT LEAST 10 war chiefs, possibly more. The second life is a bit annoying but it's not hard to burn through some extra hp. The problem is though, that in crusade, your team is most likely a magic nuke composition. Therefore, basic attacks don't do much. What ends up happening is that each stage, you nuke the enemy team (or just kill them with good skill timing). EVERYONE dies, including war chief. Then, your team moves up and bunches up near war chief's dead body. War chief gets up, bam, cleave on almost your whole team, including the squishes that get chunked for half life from one cleave. Then you watch war chief damage your whole team while he slowly gets chipped down and dies. If you have your skills up (highly unlikely as u just used them to kill enemy team), you can't even use them because u need them for next stage.
    This happens every single stage. I wipe out enemy team. War chief gets up, cleaves my team, then does more damage then dies.

    The second issue is HUGE. The whole point of the game is to form the strongest team and fight. Aka arena. Now in arena, if your team has significantly more power, up in levels and a better team composition, you're supposed to win right? NOPE.
    In a fight that has two physical teams that are similar but has 100-2000 power difference, the weaker team will win. Every. Single. Time. Because the War chief, from the weaker team, always dies first. Then the stronger team moves up because there's theoretically no tank. Then the dead war chief revives on top of the squishies, then cleaves for half HP. Naturally, now the stronger team is screwed because at least one mid died (which means no OC freeze or VS petrify or lunar damage). Then the weaker team CC hits, and game over.
    This isn't even RNG. I've never seen a battle where if a War chief dies first they actually lose (provided the power difference isn't over 2k).
    It happens to me all the time. I can consistently beat teams that are supposed to beat me on defense because my war chief died first. And I lose most of the time against lower level war chief teams as well.
    So what's the point of getting stronger, if being stronger than your opponent doesn't mean anything?

    Clearly, War chief needs a mechanic change (notice I said change, NOT NERF). I have some suggestions but the change doesn't have to be any of these.

    1) Revive timer is decreased to one second (this is actually a buff)
    - Let's face it, everyone uses war chief. Making it slightly stronger wouldn't matter. What would change is that in arena, the stronger team wouldn't walk far before War chief's second life is up. This change wouldn't fix crusade though.

    2) War chief revives immediately, but is stunned for 1-3 seconds (Idk what's an appropriate number)
    - This is a nerf but I'm pretty sure even with this change War chief will still be on every arena team.

    3) Cleave is the second attack that War chief uses after reviving
    - This doesn't change much but, it's something?


    But yea there's plenty of other possible options. Feel free to leave any ideas. Again, I'm not trying to nerf war chief, I use him myself. Neither am I complaining that it's overpowered. I'm just trying to address mechanics that make the game not very fun.

    TL;DR: WC revive + immediate cleave is problematic in crusade and arena as your crusade team takes huge unnecessary damage and weaker arena teams end up winning. No nerfing the hero though, just changing up some mechanics to avoid this.

    If Ember, Allen or any admins could read this and leave their thoughts on this, that would be great.

    Thanks!
    Last edited by abbyface; 11-19-2014 at 11:30 PM.

  2. #2
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    25
    Panda is the best end game tank heroe with IF second,don't worry WC will be out soon but he's free atm so beware what you wish for,magic group with DK/chaplain and you should have little trouble from WC and 4 Dps in crusade

  3. #3
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Godsend View Post
    Panda is the best end game tank heroe with IF second,don't worry WC will be out soon but he's free atm so beware what you wish for,magic group with DK/chaplain and you should have little trouble from WC and 4 Dps in crusade
    Yea I know panda is good late game but he can't tank alone right? you need either WC or hoof to go with it. The top arena players in my server are around 75 atm but pretty much everyone is still using WC. I do see IF and panda as well but WC is still pretty dominant.

    Also, WC being out late game doesn't matter much right? From 51 to whenever WC falls off (which I bet will be like 80+ if anything), this problem exists.

  4. #4
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    564
    Rep Power
    24
    WC can do some heavy damage still at later levels, but he cannot survive at all. He has about the same hp with his first and second life combined as panda and about half as much defense. This is at purple +3.

  5. #5
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Brute View Post
    WC can do some heavy damage still at later levels, but he cannot survive at all. He has about the same hp with his first and second life combined as panda and about half as much defense. This is at purple +3.
    dayum, panda is crazy. But again, it's at purple+3 which is level 78. From level 51-78 (which is at least 2 months of playing), this problem exists.

    By the way, doesn't the problem with revive cleave still exist at high levels? Even if he dies fast, the enemy team will move up, and WC will revive on top of the squishes, then cleave them. And since everyone has aoe damage (lunar/vengeance/OC), your mid will die before firing skills for sure.

    I think you guys are missing the point of the thread. It doesn't have anything to with if WC is strong or weak. It's about weaker teams stealing wins because of the revive cleave mechanic.
    Last edited by abbyface; 11-19-2014 at 11:45 PM.

  6. #6
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    25
    All top 80s on my server use 5* panda as solo tank,once people start seeing this panda will be the new nerf heroe,I use a physical team in crusade with DK/chaplain and love fighting WC with 4 Dps,it's a fairly straight forward fight when you have 5 ults every fight
    Last edited by Godsend; 11-19-2014 at 11:49 PM.

  7. #7
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Godsend View Post
    All top 80s on my server use 5* panda as solo tank,once people start seeing this panda will be the new nerf heroe
    again, this thread is NOT about nerfing war chief. It's about weaker teams winning due to the revive cleave mechanic from lvl 51-78.

    Quote Originally Posted by Godsend View Post
    I use a physical team in crusade with DK/chaplain and love fighting WC with 4 Dps,it's a fairly straight forward fight when you have 5 ults every fight
    physical team? o.o which heroes exactly? right now Im using Death knight, death mage, Old Curse, Mystic, Chaplain....I can get 15/15 pretty much all the time. Like I said, the crusade issue isn't a big deal. Its just annoying cuz it makes crusade harder than it needs to be.
    Last edited by abbyface; 11-19-2014 at 11:53 PM.

  8. #8
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by abbyface View Post
    again, this thread is NOT about nerfing war chief. It's about weaker teams winning due to the revive cleave mechanic from lvl 51-78.



    physical team? o.o which heroes exactly? right now Im using Death knight, death mage, Old Curse, Mystic, Chaplain....I can get 15/15 pretty much all the time. Like I said, the crusade issue isn't a big deal. Its just annoying cuz it makes crusade harder than it needs to be.
    You can do 15/15 all the time?? Well then clearly crusade is not hard enough,I like the lunar/pilot/windmaster combo but I do have 11 heroes so I mix and match,why use death Mage with DK(one is enough)maybe a heavy hitter like imperial could 1 shot the WC when he returns from the dead
    Last edited by Godsend; 11-20-2014 at 12:14 AM.

  9. #9
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by Godsend View Post
    You can do 15/15 all the time?? Well then clearly crusade is not hard enough,I like the lunar/pilot/windmaster combo but I do have 11 heroes so I mix and match,why use death Mage with DK(one is enough)maybe a heavy hitter like imperial could 1 shot the WC when he returns from the dead
    i use both because it's the best of both worlds. When I use DK alone, there's not enough DPS so my DK gets chunked faster than he can heal. When I use DM alone, the tank takes way more than than it can heal from chaplain. I also tried no tank with DM but physical teams that are 5 levels higher will just permastun DM and kill her right away LOL

    and well i do 15/15 everyday BUT that takes a fully leveled 3* DK, a fully leveled 5* DM that i hire (yes Im lucky that I can hire that lol), and about 10-15 retries each stage from 11th to 15th to get the perfect result. There are often times when I wipe out enemy team then the enemy WC revives and damages my team too much so I have to retreat then try again...

  10. #10
    Platinum Member Contributor Level 8
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    572
    Rep Power
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by abbyface View Post
    i use both because it's the best of both worlds. When I use DK alone, there's not enough DPS so my DK gets chunked faster than he can heal. When I use DM alone, the tank takes way more than than it can heal from chaplain. I also tried no tank with DM but physical teams that are 5 levels higher will just permastun DM and kill her right away LOL

    and well i do 15/15 everyday BUT that takes a fully leveled 3* DK, a fully leveled 5* DM that i hire (yes Im lucky that I can hire that lol), and about 10-15 retries each stage from 11th to 15th to get the perfect result. There are often times when I wipe out enemy team then the enemy WC revives and damages my team too much so I have to retreat then try again...
    Ya retreat has taken the fun off crusade a small bit,before I used to dread goin DK and 4 Dps but now I just retreat and try a different combo if that don't work,a lot of teams use physical cause of arena do once my pilot/windmaster/commando takes out at least 2 backline it's normally a easy fight

  11. #11
    Diamond Member Contributor Level 9
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    894
    Rep Power
    37
    Well theoretically wc isnt a tank/real tank anyway. He has low armor, low magic resist, okayish hp, high lifesteal/atk/armor pene. That kinda tells u he is a dmg dealer. And if he doesnt cleave on his first attack, he literally deals 0 dmg. Then what else is he good for? I dont find the cleave a problem. I dont recruit dm as i need dk, if u need 10-15 retries and even with a 5* dm, bcus of the cleave, then i have nth to say abt ur game sense lol.. i am using oc and the cleave hits hard yea but sacrifices have to be made for 12-15 hence i will just mix around and still manage 15/15 mostly even tho i am fighting 76s when i am 71.

  12. #12
    Bronze Member Contributor Level 12
    Join Date
    Sep 2014
    Posts
    3,823
    Rep Power
    138
    When I was lvl 50s-60s, I would say:"Please don't do anything to WC". Now I'm lvl 70+, it's a bit too late to discuss about WC. Even if my WC could revive 15 times/Crusade, I don't believe he could survive in any battles from stage 11+.

    I think the reason people use WC from level 70+ is because they don't have Panda, if they have Panda (with high stars) they would replace WC immediately.
    Last edited by bin; 11-20-2014 at 09:18 AM.

  13. #13
    Silver Member Contributor Level 5
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    99
    Rep Power
    9
    Let just say each hero has their moment, once they passed that moment, its more or less nothing.

    IMHO, I don't really think WC is a tank, he is just not meaty enough with his HP, Armor and Resistance. The only reason why players use it because of the revive and high damage, otherwise its nothing.

    Stats comparison, SK has better what-so-called tank heroes than WC. Hence, I still don't think WC is a tank. He is just convenient to use to most of the players.

    Been using WC for a long time that I can't even remember, There was moments, he stand still and rock, some other moments, he just stood there and died, revive and die agian.

  14. #14
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeStupid View Post
    if u need 10-15 retries and even with a 5* dm, bcus of the cleave, then i have nth to say abt ur game sense lol..
    And how does 5* dm help in this situation? Think before u type man. Death mage has crappy phys atk as u already probably know. After she ults, if she doesn't get at least a double or triple kill she can't ult again until the next stage.
    My game sense is completely fine thank you very much. The fact that I've been clearing 15/15 for about a month now even when rolling into super hard crusades (last stage is always around 5-8 levels above me) is already more than the average HC player can do.
    btw I dont actually need 10-15 retries, I'm just playing safe, trying to clear everything with my main crusade team.

  15. #15
    Gold Member Contributor Level 6
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    190
    Rep Power
    12
    Quote Originally Posted by DontBeStupid View Post
    Well theoretically wc isnt a tank/real tank anyway. He has low armor, low magic resist, okayish hp, high lifesteal/atk/armor pene. That kinda tells u he is a dmg dealer. And if he doesnt cleave on his first attack, he literally deals 0 dmg. Then what else is he good for? I dont find the cleave a problem. I dont recruit dm as i need dk, if u need 10-15 retries and even with a 5* dm, bcus of the cleave, then i have nth to say abt ur game sense lol.. i am using oc and the cleave hits hard yea but sacrifices have to be made for 12-15 hence i will just mix around and still manage 15/15 mostly even tho i am fighting 76s when i am 71.
    like i said crusade isn't a big issue, it's arena im concerned about. and cleave can stay as the first attack, there are plenty of other possible changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by bin View Post
    When I was lvl 50s-60s, I would say:"Please don't do anything to WC". Now I'm lvl 70+, it's a bit too late to discuss about WC. Even if my WC could revive 15 times/Crusade, I don't believe he could survive in any battles from stage 11+.

    I think the reason people use WC from level 70+ is because they don't have Panda, if they have Panda (with high stars) they would replace WC immediately.
    um, why do u even use War chief in crusade? I dont understand? .....I use him in stage 1 to build up some energy then have him on bench loll. But you're missing the point by comparing WC to panda. Nobody is talking about if WC is strong or weak! Read the post again :/

    Quote Originally Posted by plenyun View Post
    Let just say each hero has their moment, once they passed that moment, its more or less nothing.

    IMHO, I don't really think WC is a tank, he is just not meaty enough with his HP, Armor and Resistance. The only reason why players use it because of the revive and high damage, otherwise its nothing.

    Stats comparison, SK has better what-so-called tank heroes than WC. Hence, I still don't think WC is a tank. He is just convenient to use to most of the players.

    Been using WC for a long time that I can't even remember, There was moments, he stand still and rock, some other moments, he just stood there and died, revive and die agian.
    I don't think 51-80 is a "moment". That's the whole mid game and a big chunk of late game. That's like saying 2000-2100 is just a couple of years.....





    All three of u guys missed the point. I'm not trying to debate whether or not WC is powerful or not. Maybe panda is better...Heck maybe shallows is better. Maybe WC is actually very strong? Who knows? I don't care.
    The point of the thread is that SINCE everyone does use WC, the issue is that WEAKER War chiefs steal wins by cleaving the whole team after reviving. I think I said this like 10 times now.

    I just had it happen to me again, not that it's an uncommon thing...enemy war chief died first, then my whole team moved up. he revived, then cleaved my ENTIRE back line. ALL FOUR! Also critted my old curse for 8k, killing him instantly...Then his OC freeze came in, GG.
    And this was against a guy 2 levels and 500 power down from me.

    And Allen thanks for the rep comment. Although I would love to actually hear your opinion on it.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •